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Legendary History Prior to 1st Century BC
Beli Mawr and Llyr Llediath in Welsh Pedigrees
The Bartrum "Welsh Genealogies"
Bartrum's "Pedigrees of the Welsh Tribal Patriarchs"
A study in charting medieval citations
The Evolution of the "Padriarc Brenin" Pedigree
Generational Gaps and the Welsh Laws
Minimum Age for Welsh Kingship in the Eleventh Century
The Lands of the Silures
Catel Durnluc aka Cadell Ddyrnllwg
Ancient Powys
The Royal Family of Powys
The Royal Family of Gwynedd
The 5 Plebian Tribes of Wales
Maxen Wledig of Welsh Legend
Maxen Wledig and the Welsh Genealogies
Anwn Dynod ap Maxen Wledig
Constans I and his 343 Visit to Britain
Glast and the Glastening
Composite Lives of St Beuno
Rethinking the Gwent Pedigrees
The Father of Tewdrig of Gwent
Another Look at Teithfallt of Gwent
Ynyr Gwent and Caradog Freich Fras
Llowarch ap Bran, Lord of Menai
Rulers of Brycheiniog - The Unanswered Questions
Lluan ferch Brychan
The Herbert Family Pedigree
Edwin of Tegeingl and his Family
Angharad, Heiress of Mostyn
Ithel of Bryn in Powys
Idnerth Benfras of Maesbrook
Henry, the Forgotten Son of Cadwgan ap Bleddyn
The Muddled Pedigree of Sir John Wynn of Gwydir
The Mysterious Peverel Family
The Clan of Tudor Trevor
The Other "Sir Roger of Powys"
Ancestry of Ieuaf ap Adda ap Awr of Trevor
The Retaking of Northeast Wales
Hedd Molwynog or Hedd ap Alunog of Llanfair Talhearn
"Meuter Fawr" son of Hedd ap Alunog
The Medieval "redating" of Braint Hir
Aaron Paen ap Y Paen Hen
Welsh Claims to Ceri after 1179
The Battle of Mynydd Carn
Trahaearn ap Caradog of Arwystli
Cadafael Ynfyd of Cydewain
Maredudd ap Robert, Lord of Cedewain
Cadwgan of Nannau
Maredudd ap Owain, King of Deheubarth
Two Families headed by a Rhydderch ap Iestyn
The Era of Llewelyn ap Seisyll
Cynfyn ap Gwerystan, the Interim King
The Consorts and Children of Gruffudd ap Llewelyn
The 1039 Battle at Rhyd y Groes
The First Wife of Bleddyn ap Cynfyn
Hywel ap Gronwy of Deheubarth
The Brief Life of Gruffudd ap Maredudd
The Other Gwenwynwyn
Eunydd son of Gwenllian
Sandde Hardd of Mortyn
The Floruit of Einion ap Seisyllt
The Enigmatic Elystan Glodrydd
Cowryd ap Cadfan of Dyffryn Clwyd
Owain ap Cadwgan and Nest ferch Rhys - An Historic Fiction?
The "sons" of Owain ap Cadwgan ap Bleddyn
The Betrayal by Meirion Goch Revisited
Gwyn Ddistain, seneschal for Llewelyn Fawr
The Men of Lleyn - How They Got There
Trahaearn Goch of Lleyn
Einion vs Iestyn ap Gwrgan - The Conquest of Glamorgan
Dafydd Goch ap Dafydd - His Real Ancestry
Thomas ap Rhodri - Father of Owain "Lawgoch"
The "Malpas" Family in Cheshire
Einion ap Celynin of Llwydiarth
Marchweithian, Lord of Is Aled, Rhufoniog
Osbwrn Wyddel of Cors Gedol
Bradwen of Llys Bradwen in Meirionydd
Ednowain ap Bradwen
Sorting out the Gwaithfoeds
Three Men called Iorwerth Goch "ap Maredudd"
The Caradog of Gwynedd With 3 Fathers
Who Was Sir Robert Pounderling?
Eidio Wyllt - What Was His Birthname?
The Legendary Kingdom of Seisyllwg
The Royal Family of Ceredigion
Llewelyn ap Hoedliw, Lord of Is Cerdin
The Ancestry of Owain Glyndwr
Gruffudd ap Rhys, the Homeless Prince
The Children of Lord Rhys
Maredudd Gethin ap Lord Rhys
The 'Next Heir' of Morgan of Caerleon
Pedigree of the ancient Lords of Ial
The Shropshire Walcot Family
Pedigree of "Ednowain Bendew II"
Pedigree of Cynddelw Gam
                       THE MUDDLED PEDIGREE OF SIR JOHN WYNN OF GWYDIR
                                                By Darrell Wolcott
 
         Our inquiry into this family line will proceed in three steps: (1) examine the early men from whom Sir John claimed descent; (2) review the bottom of the family which may have been known to Sir John either personally or by family memories passed down to him; and (3) look at the middle generations by which Sir John sought to attach the early men to his known ancestors, these men known to him only by references he found in public documents and extant pedigree manuscripts.
 
THE EARLY MEN
 
         The top of the pedigree cast by Sir John Wynn begins with Owain Gwynedd, king of Gwynedd and eldest son of Gruffudd ap Cynan:
 
                         1100   Owain Gwynedd, ob 1170
                                           l
                               1135  Rhodri, ob 1195
                                           l
                              1165  Thomas
                                           l
                              1195  Caradog
                                           l ?
                                      Gruffudd
 
        While there are independent medieval citations which confirm that Thomas ap Rhodri had a son called Caradog[1], none exist which link Gruffudd ap Caradog to him.  Every source which mentions this Gruffudd ends his ancestry with Caradog[2]. 
 
        In an earlier paper[3], we showed that the Caradog ap Thomas in the Gwydir pedigree must have been born c. 1170 as a man of Powys, not Gwynedd, and suggested the father of Thomas might have been Henry ap Cadwgan ap Bleddyn.  The Thomas ap Rhodri to whom Sir John Wynn attached his ancestors occurs a full generation too late and must be rejected as his ancestor.
 
        Gruffudd ap Caradog in the Gwydir pedigree would occur c. 1205 and is cited as married to Lleuci ferch Llywarch Fychan ap Llywarch Goch of Rhos[4]. We date that marriage as follows:
 
                         1020  Llywarch Hwlbwrch*
                                             l
                           1055  Llywarch Goch**
                                             l
                                 1085  Cynan
                                             l
                               1115  Iorwerth
                                             l
                            1150  Llywarch Goch
                                             l
                         1180  Llywarch Fychan        Caradog  1170
                                             l                      l
                                 1215  Lleuci========Gruffudd  1205
 
          * He was an officer at the court of King Gruffudd ap Llewelyn, ob 1063 
           ** Omitted from Bartrum's charts, but he shows a missing generation between Lleuci and Llywarch Hwlbwrch.  Many sources mention a Llywarch Goch ap Llywarch Hwlbwrch, but all then confuse him with the later Llywarch Goch who was father to Llywarch Fychan.
 
 
          Lleuci ferch Llywarch Fychan apparently held a manor in Ysgeibion, Ceinmarch which was later inherited by her son, Dafydd ap Gruffudd who was born c. 1235.  It was during the lifetime of this Dafydd when Edward I conquered Wales and brought in his own men to rule it.  Henry Lacy was named Lord of Denbigh; to construct his castle, he took possession of many acres of land surrounding the site and gave the evicted homeowners tracts of land in distant parts of his lordship.  Dafydd received two manors in Rhos, one in the parish of Llanrwst and the other in Eglwys-bach, both located in the commote of Uwch Dulas[5].
 
         The pedigree material presents another chronological problem following Dafydd ap Gruffudd.  He is assigned three sons called Hywel, Dafydd Chwith and Maredudd, men who are named in the 1334 Survey of the Honor of Denbigh as landowners in Uwch Dulas[6].  Nothing more is known of Maredudd, but Hywel ap Dafydd ap Gruffudd is cited as having married Efa ferch Ieuan ap Hywel ap Maredudd of Eifionydd[7], a lady born c. 1280.  Dafydd Chwith ap Dafydd married twice, with both ladies born c. 1300/1305[8].  One immediately suspects that the Hywel and Dafydd Chwith to whom these marriages belong were not brothers.  Descendants of both men appear to confirm they were born a generation apart.  The following chart depicts a reasonable construction of the family timeline:
 
                                    1205  Gruffudd
                                                 l
                                     1235  Dafydd(a)
                 ____________________l____________
                 l                                                   l
    1270  Hywel(b)                                1265  Dafydd(c)
                                 ______________________l________
                                 l                     l                          l
               1295  Dafydd Chwith(d)   Maredudd(d)     1300 Hywel(d)
 
       (a) The Dafydd whose manor in Ceinmarch was traded for two manors in Uwch Dulas, Rhos
       (b) The Hywel ap Dafydd who married Efa ferch Ieuan of Eifionydd
       (c) This man is missing from the citations, but matches up chronologically with the "Dafydd ap Gruffudd" who married Efa ferch Gruffudd Fychan of Eifionydd
       (d) The brothers and sons of Dafydd holding land in Rhos in 1334
 
        We believe the c. 1235 Dafydd ap Gruffudd not only had two sons (Hywel and Dafydd) but that both sons married Eifionydd heiresses.  The pedigrees say that Dafydd ap Gruffudd married Efa ferch Gruffudd ap Gruffudd Fychan ap Moreiddig of Efionydd[9], but we believe that marriage belongs to Dafydd ap Dafydd ap Gruffudd of c. 1265 and further suggest the "Moreiddig" in the citation is a copyist's distortion of "Maredudd".  No Moreiddig is otherwise known to any extant pedigree manuscripts and Bartrum assigned him as "unknown"[10]. 
 
        The commote of Efionydd was among the holdings of Collwyn ap Tangno, and we believe the following chart depicts the two ladies who married the sons of Dafydd ap Gruffudd:
 
                                    1010  Collwyn
                                                 l
                                  1040  Merwydd Goch
                                                 l
                                    1075  Gwgan
                                                 l
                                   1110  Caradog
                                                 l
                                     1140  Einion
                                                 l
                                    1175  Maredudd
                       ________________l_______________
                       l                                                 l
           1210  Hywel                               1210  Gruffudd
                       l                                                 l
           1245  Ieuan                            1245  Gruffudd Fychan
                       l                                                 l
            1280  Efa(a)                                  1280  Efa(b)
                     =                                                 =
   1270  Hywel ap Dafydd                     1265  Dafydd ap Dafydd
 
       (a) This Efa inherited lands in Pennant Parish called Cefn y fan (later Ystumcegid) and Gesail Gyfarch
         (b) This Efa inherited lands in Penyfed Parish called Clenennau and Bryncir
 
        Dadydd ap Dafydd, the eldest son, received the two Rhos manors.  Why neither went to his brother Hywel is not known.[11]  We have already met the three sons of Dafydd ap Dafydd; it was Dafydd Chwith who inherited the Rhos manors, while Hywel received his mother's Efionydd lands at Clenennau and Bryncir. Nothing more is known of their brother, Maredudd.  Hywel ap Dafydd ap Gruffudd had, among others, a son Maredudd born c. 1305, who inheirited his mother's lands in Cefn-y-fan and Gesail Gyfarch, Eifionydd. 
 
        The difficulty in keeping these two cousin lines in Eifionydd separate is compounded by both favoring a small number of male names for their sons.  The next couple of generation will illustrate this point:
 
                       1265  Dafydd                       1270  Hywel
            ______________l_______                            l
            l                                 l                            l
1295 Dafydd Chwith       1300  Hywel          1305  Maredudd
            l                                 l                            l
1330  Hywel                1335 Maredudd          1335  Ieuan
            l                                 l                            l
1365  Dafydd                1365  Ieuan            1365 Maredudd
 
   (Llanrwsrt)                  (Clenennau)            (Gesail Gyfarch)
       Rhos                        Efionydd                    Efionydd
 
            
THE CONTEMPORARY MEN
 
          Sir John Wynn was born in 1553 and died in 1627.  Said to be "a man of great abilities and an eccentric genius, haughty in his views and austere in his measures".  Some say other noblemen of his day claimed he was of illegitimate ancestry[12], which motivated him to make an exhaustive search for "proof" of his lineage.  Most scoffed when he claimed descent from Gruffudd ap Cynan and even modern scholars admit the ancestry of Gruffudd ap Caradog of c. 1200 is unknown. His father was Morys ap John Wynn who lived 1525-1580.  His grandfather, John Wynn ap Maredudd, died in 1559 when the future Sir John was but 6 years old.  It had been his great-grandfather Maredudd ap Ieuan who had established the basis for the future wealth of the family by (1) being fostered out as a lad to a wealthy gentleman who owned Crug and, having no sons of his own, left it to Maredudd; (2) marrying the daughter of a scion of the family descended from Ednyfed Fychan; and (3) purchasing the lease of a huge tract of uninhabited waste land, overrun by thieves, in Nant Conwy.  This Maredudd had then built a private army to rid the area of thieves by offering land to strong, tall young men (many of questionable reputation) and helping them restore the manor houses which had been abandoned by former tenants]13]. 
 
        We are told by Sir John that the paternal home of Y Gesail Gyfarch in Eifionydd had long been embroiled in inter-family fighting between its various cousin lines; Maredudd supposedly had answered the question "why did you settle in wasteland overrun by thieves instead of return to your father's manor at his death" by saying he preferred to fight with outlaws rather than with his own blood and kindred.  No doubt many stories of Maredudd were passed down to Sir John, but he had no way to sort fact from hyperbole; the man was long dead by the time Sir John was born.  And it is doubtful much more than their names was known to Sir John concerning the father and grandfather of Maredudd; there was little heroic about, nor pride to be found in, men who had accomplished little more than fight their own cousins for decades. 
 
          The father of Maredudd was Ieuan ap Robert ap Maredudd, a man whom Sir John says was born in 1437 and died at the age of 31 in 1468.  We assume he located the inquest record to learn this information.  It is at this point in the family where Sir John's pedigree ceases to follow a reasonable timeline, and diverges into pure confusion by his assumption that every Ieuan ap Robert ap Maredudd found in the records of Eifionydd was the same man as his ancestor. 
 
          Sir John located a Ieuan ap Robert ap Maredudd and begins writing about that Robert as if it were his ancestor.  That Robert ap Maredudd was born c. 1365/1370 and had a brother named Ieuan.  Those brothers took opposite sides in the Owain Glendwr rebellion, with Robert supporting Glendwr and Ieuan siding with King Henry IV.  But the finding that Robert was a man of fighting age in 1400-1407 (he received a pardon from the king in 1408) left Sir John with a big gap in the pedigree he was drafting.  If his ancestor Ieuan ap Robert were born in 1437, how could it be that Robert was near or past 70 years old at the birth of a son?  Obviously none of Sir John's living relatives knew anything about the Robert ap Maredudd in their ancestry, so when Sir John reviewed his findings with them it was agreed that Robert ap Maredudd surely must have married late in life.  After all, Sir John had located the will of Morfydd ferch Ieuan Goch, the wife of Maredudd ap Ieuan and mother of the brothers Robert and Ieuan ap Maredudd.  The will was dated 1416, consistent with a lady born c. 1350 who had mothered sons the right age to be embroiled in the Glendwr rebellion.  Thus we are told by Sir John "for we have it by certain tradition that Robert was almost four score years old before he ever married and then in his dotage fancied and married Angharad (born. c. 1415), the daughter of Dafydd ap Llewelyn ap Dafydd of Cefnmelgoed....".  A tradition, no doubt, begun by Sir John himself as he sought to explain the huge gap in the pedigree he had fashioned for himself!
 
         In fact, his real ancestor was a Robert ap Maredudd ap Ieuan born c. 1400 who did marry the Angharad of c. 1415 mentioned above. That Robert had a younger brother, John ap Maredudd, who took in Robert's son Ieuan, born in 1437, after Robert died and when Ieuan was still a child....not from old age, but as a man in his 40's.  Sir John located a wholly different John ap Maredudd whom he makes the foster caretaker of Ieuan, this one descended from the family which did have brothers Robert and Ieuan living in 1400:
 
                  1335  Maredudd ap Hywel====Morfydd ferch Ieuan Goch
                        ____________l____________   c. 1350, ob 1416
                        l                                      l
           1365  Robert                               Ieuan  1370
                        l                                      l
                        l                                Maredudd  1400
                        l                                      l
            1437  Ieuan*                              John**  1430
                                                          
          * Actually this Ieuan was born c. 1400 but Sir John Wynn thought he was the Ieuan ap Robert of 1437 from whom he descended
           ** This John ap Maredudd was father to Morys and others. And he is the man of that name to whom Henry Tudor wrote asking for support for his coming war against Richard III 
 
             Sir John calls the John ap Maredudd who took in young Ieuan as a child "his cousin-german's son", the relationship which does exist between the Ieuan and John in this chart.  But even if the Robert of c. 1365 had a son in 1437, his (Ieuan ap Robert's) cousin-german's son would still be a child near that son's age and hardly capable of taking any child to foster.  The John ap Maredudd in this chart could hardly have been born even a half-generation earlier than 1430 or he would not have been sought out by Henry Tudor for his support in the mid-1480's. (see this story below)
 
          Notice how the chronology meshes perfectly when we identify the correct Robert ap Maredudd in Sir John's ancestry:
 
                 1365  Maredudd ap Ieuan===Marged ferch Einion*  1375
                         _________________l__________
                         l                                           l
             1400  Robert**                                John***  1395
                         l
             1437  Ieuan
                         l
               to Sir John Wynn
 
        *Einion ap Ithel ap Gwrgeneu Fychan ap Gwrgeneu descended from Rhiryd Flaidd
        ** Died c. 1445; his widow Angharad remarried Maredudd ap Rhys ap Ieuan Lloyd of Arllechwedd Uchaf, without the knowledge or consent of her brother-in-law John according to Sir John Wynn, who merely calls John her "ally".
      *** The uncle who raised Ieuan ap Robert; little else is certain of him since the John ap Maredudd cited extensively by Sir John was a later man of the same name
 
      
          Among the data assembled by Sir John in writing his history were two references to a John ap Maredudd.  A man of that name, whom we would identify as his ancestor born c. 1395, had fought as an ally with Owen Tudor in the early 1400's.  Sir John found a letter which Henry Tudor had written to a John ap Maredudd ap Ieuan ap Maredudd in the 1480's asking for his military assistance as he prepared for the Battle of Bosworth.  While assuming the letter's recipient to be the same John ap Maredudd ap Ieuan ap Maredudd who had earlier assisted Owen Tudor, Sir John took no notice of the chronology.  But drawing heavily upon Sir John's History of the Gwydir Family,  Colin Gresham in his Eifionydd, A Study in Land Ownership, 1972, pp 22/23 says:
    
          "The last recorded fact in the long life of John ap Maredudd has a touch of romance in it, and also of pathos.  When Henry Tudor landed in Milford Haven in 1485 and was preparing to attack Richard III, he was eager to contact all powerful Welshmen who could give him their support.  He wrote a letter, quoted in The History of the Gwydir Family, to John ap Maredudd ap Ieuan ap Maredudd, commanding him to bring all possible force that he could to his aid.  Henry must often have heard glowing descriptions of the brave support given to his grandfather...but he had not allowed for the passing of time; the letter must have stirred the old man's heart with memories of the past"
 
         It is clear Gresham did notice the chronology problem, but took Henry Tudor as being so foolish as to seek military help from a man whose career had paralelled his own grandfather.  With a bit more research, it would have become clear it was a wholly different John ap Maredudd to whom Henry Tudor wrote...the one born c. 1435 who was NOT in Sir John's ancestry.  But like Sir John, Gresham's work often confuses the same-named men who lived a generation apart.
          
 

THE MIDDLE GENERATIONS
 
          We will begin this section by charting the manner in which Sir John Wynn connected the ancient family to his contemporary family:
 
                                   Caradog
                                        l
                                  Gruffudd
                                        l
                                    Dafydd
                                        l
                                    Hywel
                                        l
                                  Maredudd
                                        l
                           1365  Robert, pardoned 1408
                                        l
                            1437  Ieuan, ob 1468
                                        l
                                  Maredudd
                                        l
                                  John Wynn, ob 1559
                                        l
                                    Morys, ob 1580
                                        l
                         1553  Sir John Wynn, ob 1627
 
         Were we to accept this chart, we should be forced to date the Caradog at the top to c. 1200, a dating which would allow him to be the son of Thomas ap Rhodri ap Owain Gwynedd.  But we have shown by multiple marriages in the 12th and 13th centuries that this Caradog instead must date from c. 1170, which leaves another 1-generation gap somewhere, aside from the gap Sir John filled by attaching a son to a 70+ year old father.
 
         By following the family who held the Y Gesail Gyfarch manor in Eifionydd, and the "cousin" family at Clenennau, we would recast the pedigree as follows:
 
                            1170  Caradog
                                         l
                            1205  Gruffudd
                                         l
                            1235   Dafydd
                         __________l___________
                         l                                 l
             1270  Hywel(a)                      Dafydd(b)  1265
                         l                                 l
           1305  Maredudd                       Hywel  1305
                         l                                 l
             1335  Ieuan                        Maredudd(c)  1335
                         l                       ______l__________
                         l                       l                          l
           1365  Maredudd(d)   1365 Robert                Ieuan(e) 1370
          _________l______              l                          l
          l                        l             l                          l
1400 Robert(f)    1395  John(g)   Ieuan 1400         Maredudd 1400
          l                        l                                        l
1437 Ieuan        1430  Owain(h)                             John(i) 1430
          l                        l_________                         l
     Maredudd(j)  1465                     l                    Morys 1460
          l                           1460  John Owen(k)             l
    John Wynn  1495-1559                                    Elise(l)  1493
          l
   Morys Wynn  1525-1580
          l
 Sir John Wynn  1553-1627
   
   
      (a) The Hywel ap Dafydd who married Efa ferch Ieuan of Cefn-y-fan; the lady was born c. 1280 and brought that manor to her son Maredudd
      (b)  The Dafydd who married Efa ferch Gruffudd Fychan, heiress of lands in Penyfed, Eifionydd. The lady was born c. 1280 and brought that land to her son Hywel
      (c) The Maredudd ap Hywel who married Morfydd ferch Ieuan Goch, she born c. 1345 and died in 1416
      (d)  The Maredudd ap Ieuan who married Marged ferch Einion of Rhiwaedog, she born c. 1375
      (e) The Ieuan ap Maredudd who married Lleuci ferch Hywel of Nannau, she born c. 1380
      (f) The Robert ap Maredudd ap Ieuan who married Angharad ferch Dafydd ap Llewelyn, not when he was near 80 years old, but in his 30's
      (g)  The John ap Maredudd who fostered his nephew, Ieuan ap Robert; he was also the John ap Maredudd who fought beside Owen Tudor in the early 1400's, and who married Gwenhwyfar ferch Gronwy of Gwynfryn, a lady born c. 1405
     (h)  This son of John ap Maredudd received the family's paternal manor at Ystumcegid
     (i) The John ap Maredudd of Clenennau whom Henry Tudor wrote for support in the 1480's
     (j)  The Maredudd ap Ieuan who left Eifionydd to settle on wastelands in Nant Conwy, and who purchased Gwydir from a descendant of Hywel Coetmor
    (k)  5 generations after this John Owen, an heiress (Cathryn ferch Robert) took Ystumcegid to her son, Owain Wynn ap Robert, whose only daughter, Margaret, married Sir Robert Owen of Clenennau
    (l)  3 generations after Elise, an heiress (Elen ferch Sir William Maurice) took Clenennau to her son, John Owen of Bodsilin.  Her great-grandson, Sir Robert Owen married the heiress of Ystumcegid
 
 
         We tend to excuse Sir John a bit for thinking that a John ap Maredudd ap Ieuan ap Maredudd ap Hywel ap Dafydd born c. 1430 was the same man as the John ap Maredudd ap Ieuan ap Maredudd ap Hywel ap Dafydd who was born c. 1400.  But those two separate lines of the family can be seen repeatedly in the cited pedigrees of other men and ladies of the two families:
 
1.  Marsli ferch Maredudd ap Hywel ap Dafydd married Cynwrig ap Bleddyn ap Ithel Anwyl ap Bleddyn ap Ithel Lloyd ap Ithel Gam Hen ap Maredudd ap Uchdryd[14].  That Cynwrig was born c. 1320 and we date Marsli c. 1335 and make her from the family on the left above, her father being Maredudd born c. 1305.
 
2. Marsli ferch Maredudd ap Hywel ap Dafydd married John son of Richard Conwy[15].  Their son, Jenkin, was father to John Conwy Hen, born c. 1430.  We date John son of Richard c. 1360 and Marsli c. 1370, a full generation younger than the Marsli mentioned above.  We assign her to the family on the right, a sister of the two brothers who took opposite sides during the Owain Glendwr rebellion.  Even Sir John Wynn tells us those brothers had a sister named Marsli, although he follows the traditional Conwy pedigree in saying she married Jenkin Conwy and was the mother of 'Hen John Aer y Conwy'.  Were that true, and our research finds otherwise, the lady would occur a full two generations after the Marsli we first mentioned.  There can be little doubt there were two separate men named Maredudd ap Hywel ap Dafydd who each fathered a daughter named Marsli.
 
3.  Robin ap Hywel ap Dafydd married Dyddgu ferch Llewelyn ap Gronwy Fychan ap Tudor ap Gronwy ap Ednyfed Fychan[16].  Dyddgu would occur c. 1305 and we'd date this Robin c. 1300, a son of the Hywel born c. 1270 from the family on the left in our previous chart.
 
4.  Robin ap Hywel ap Dafydd had a daughter, Angharad, who married Ithel Fychan ap Cynwrig ap Robert ap Iorwerth[17] descended from the so-called Ednowain Bendew II.  Ithel Fychan was born c. 1370, so if we date Angharad to c. 1380, the Robin ap Hywel who was her father would occur c. 1345 or a full generation later than the Robin mentioned above.  We'd assigned his father as the Hywel born c. 1305 in the family on the right in our chart.
 
5.  Ieuan ap Maredudd ap Hywel married Lleuci ferch Hywel ap Meurig ap Ynyr Fychan ap Ynyr of Nannau[18].  She would date from c. 1380 and we date Ieuan ap Maredudd to c. 1370, the man in the family on the right above who had the brother Robert.  Sir John Wynn incorrectly calls the father of Lleuci "Hywel Sele", but that man was the son of Meurig Lloyd ap Meurig ap Ynyr Fychan.
 
6.  Ieuan ap Maredudd ap Hywel was the father of the Maredudd who married Marged ferch Einion ap Ithel[19] (discussed earlier in this paper) and had sons Robert and John.  That Maredudd was born c. 1365 and we date this Ieuan c. 1335 from the family on the left in our chart.
 
7.  Hywel ap Ieuan ap Maredudd ap Hywel had a daughter, Lowri, who married Maredudd ap Einion ap Sir Hywel y Fwyall[20].  That Maredudd would occur c. 1395 and we date Lowri to c. 1405.  Her father Hywel, accordingly, would have been born c. 1370 and be a son of the c. 1335 Ieuan from the family on the left of our chart.
 
8.  Hywel Fychan ap Ieuan ap Maredudd ap Hywel is charted by Bartrum as a brother of the Hywel next above.  He married Mallt ferch Rhys ap Ieuan[21], which Ieuan was a brother of Sir Hywel y Fwyall.  This Mallt must have been born c. 1405 and her husband Hywel Fychan born c. 1400...about a generation later than the Hywel mentioned next above.  Furthermore, this Hywel Fychan had a daughter Gwenhwyfar who married Ithel ap Hywel ap Llewelyn ap Dafydd ap Ieuan Wyddel[22] descended from Llowarch ap Bran.  Ieuan Wyddel was born c. 1290; 4 generations later came Ithel, born c. 1415.  His wife, Gwenhwyfar, would have occurred c. 1430....exactly where we should expect to find a daughter of the c. 1400 Hywel Fychan.  Thus, he requires a Ieuan born c. 1370 as his father, whom we find in the family on the right in our chart.  A late source describes this Hywel Fychan as "of Gesail Gyfarch" which he wasn't... but would be if he were a brother of the other Hywel ap Ieuan ap Maredudd ap Hywel.
 
      We would be remiss in our current project if we concluded it without commenting on a matter which Sir John Wynn considered of paramount importance (but which we and others consider both immaterial and unproven).  He went to great lengths attempting to show that his was the senior line descended from the Maredudd who was father to Ieuan born 1437.  Still talking about the c. 1400 brothers Robert and Ieuan ap Maredudd from who he did NOT descend, Sir John writes "Robert had issue Ieuan; Ieuan his brother had issue Maredudd; Maredudd had issue John.  John, being of man's estate, had the tuition of his uncle, Ieuan ap Robert, my ancestor, and yet Robin Fychan ap Dafydd ap Hywel's land in Denbighland, being cousin to them both, descended to Ieuan ap Robert my ancestor, and not to John ap Maredudd".  To Sir John, this was undisputed proof that Robert was the elder brother of Ieuan. 
 
         We consider the matter immaterial since Sir John did not descend from either of those brothers.  He cited no source to show that the land in Ucwh Dulas "descended" to anyone; a simple showing that it was later in the possesion of a man named Ieuan ap Robert ap Maredudd isn't proof he was closely related to the former owners.  Just out of curiousity, we looked for the pedigree of Robin Fychan ap Dafydd ap Hywel. No such name occurs in the body of medieval pedigree manuscripts, although this was probably the family of Dafydd ap Hywel ap Dafydd of Llanrwst, Rhos.  Born c. 1365, that Dafydd had a son named Robin born c. 1400 who had a daughter Cathryn born c. 1435.  Cathryn married Rhys ap Einion Fychan ap Ieuan descended from Iorwerth y Penwyn of Is Aled, Rhufoniog.  She and Rhys had two daughters but no sons.  Sir John asserts, incorrectly, that the lands which had been held by Cathryn's father "was, by the custom of the country, to descend to his heir male".  This, he claims, was Ieuan ap Robert, Sir John's ancestor.  
 
        We have not investigated to determine which Ieuan ap Robert came into possession of those lands, but we have seen many cases where a man died with only daughters and his lands went to those ladies, their spouses and children....not to some distant male cousin. If this Robin whom Sir John calls "Robin Fychan" was indeed "cousin" to the Robert ap Maredudd in Sir John's line, he likely sold his land to Ieuan ap Robert after he'd married his daughter (an only child) to a man from a well-off family.  Equally likely, the purchaser was the earlier Ieuan ap Robert NOT in Sir John's ancestry. 
                                                         
        This chart shows the probable relationships between Robin "Fychan" ap Dafydd to the two families depicted in our next above chart:
 
                                 1235  Dafydd ap Gruffudd ap Caradog
                  _____________________l______________
                  l                                                        l
       1270  Hywel                                               Dafydd  1265
                  l           son of one of these brothers*     l
     1305  Maredudd            1295  Dafydd               Hywel  1305
                  l                                l                       l
      1335  Ieuan                 1330  Hywel              Maredudd  1335
                  l                                l                       l
     1365  Maredudd             1365  Dafydd              Robert  1365
                  l                                l                       l
      1400  Robert                1400  Robin                 Ieuan  1400
                  l                                l
      1437  Ieuan               1435  Cathryn
 
     (Sir John's line)             (Llanrwst lands)        (the Clenenneu line)
           
        *Most citations end with Dafydd except for one which skips to Gruffudd, a chronological impossibility. Our best guess is that he was a son of the Dafydd ap Dafydd of c. 1265, and is the man sometimes called Dafydd Chwith who is known to have held lands in Rhos. Notice that Robin is 3rd cousin to both men who occur on the same horizontal line with him in the chart.
 
 
          Regardless of which Ieuan ap Robert ended up with the Rhos lands of Robin ap Dafydd, we can't agree with Sir John Wynn that it would "prove" which of the two families was "senior" to the other.
 

NOTES:
[1] These include Pen, 127, 127 and Pen. 128, 137b
[2] These include Pen. 129, 95 & 111
[3] See the paper "Henry, Forgotten Son of Cadwgan ap Bleddyn" elsewhere on this site
[4] Dwnn ii, 69; Cardiff 4.265, 216
[5] The 1334 Survey of Denbigh mentions the exchange of Ysgeibion for land in Mathebrwd in Llanrwst in Uwch Dulas Rhos, and for Esgorebrith in Eglwys-bach in Uwch Dulas Rhos
[6] Survey of the Honour of Denbigh, ed by Paul Vinogradoff and Frank Morgan, 1914, pp 278 & 284
[7] Dwnn ii, 158
[8] Pen. 128, 638b cites the wife of Dafydd Chwith as "Gwenllian ferch Bleddyn Fychan ap Bleddyn", a lady descended from Hedd ap Alunog and born c. 1305; Pen. 138, 35 cites another wife of Dafydd Chwith as "Cathryn ferch Llewelyn ap Gronwy Fychan, a lady descended from Ednyfed Fychan and also born c. 1305.
[9] Pen. 287, 853; the lady would have been born c. 1280
[10] Bartrum's "Welsh Genealogies - AD300 - 1400", chart Gruffudd ap Cynan 13
[11] One possibility is that Hywel and Dafydd were born to different ladies, and it was Dafydd's mother who owned the Rhos property
[12] This may have been a reference to the Hywel ap Gruffudd ap Dafydd from the next above note; his mother may not have been married to his father, and it is from that Hywel whom Sir John Wynn descended.  Alternately, his "illegitimacy" might have referred to the mother of Thomas at the top of his pedigree; we suspect she was a base daughter of King Henry I who married the father of Thomas
[13] Data recited in this paragraph is taken from the history written by Sir John himself
[14] Pen. 128, 146b
[15] Pen. 128, 275a
[16] Pen. 129, 114; Pen. 127, 127
[17] Pen. 129, 111; Pen. 128, 601b
[18] Pen. 127, 29; Pen 132, 54
[19] Pen. 129, 95; Pen. 127, 29 & 197
[20] Dwnn ii, 285
[21] Dwnn ii, 137 & 211
[22] WG Chart Gruffudd ap Cynan 15