csawlogo.jpg

Home
Guest-written Papers
Reference Abbreviations
Guidance Articles for Researchers
Single Family Analysis
Families of Mixed Origin
Family Pedigrees
Mis-identified Same-Named People in Wales
Battles and Historical Events
Ancient Welsh Territories
Welshmen in Llydaw, Brittany
The Men of the North
Legendary History Prior to 1st Century BC
Beli Mawr and Llyr Llediath in Welsh Pedigrees
Papers Related to Maxen Wledig
Bartrum's "Pedigrees of the Welsh Tribal Patriarchs"
Britain's Royal Roman Family
The Royal Family of Powys
2nd Powys Royal Dynasty
The Royal Family of Gwynedd
Men Descended from Tudwal Gloff
Royal Family of Gwent/ Glamorgan
The 5 Plebian Tribes of Wales
Glast and the Glastening
Papers about Rhiryd Flaidd and Penllyn
Rulers of Brycheiniog - The Unanswered Questions
The Men of Collwyn ap Tangno of Lleyn
Edwin of Tegeingl and his Family
Ednowain Bendew in Welsh pedigrees
Maelog Crwm of Arllechwedd Isaf and Crueddyn
Nefydd Hardd of Nant Conwy
Ithel of Bryn in Powys
Idnerth Benfras of Maesbrook
Tudor Trefor and his Family
Trahaearn ap Caradog of Arwystli
The Family of Trahaearn ap Caradog
Cadafael Ynfyd of Cydewain
Maredudd ap Owain, King of Deheubarth
Eunydd son of Gwenllian
Sandde Hardd of Mortyn
The Floruit of Einion ap Seisyllt
The 5 Dafydd Llwyds of Llanwrin Parish
Cowryd ap Cadfan of Dyffryn Clwyd
Marchweithian, Lord of Is Aled, Rhufoniog
Osbwrn Wyddel of Cors Gedol
Bradwen of Llys Bradwen in Meirionydd
Ednowain ap Bradwen
Who Was Sir Robert Pounderling?
Sir Aaron ap Rhys
Eidio Wyllt - What Was His Birthname?
Parents and Children of the Lord Rhys

              TANGWYSTL and TANGWYSTL: A MOTHER-DAUGHTER DUO
                                              By Darrell Wolcott
 
          Our subject here is a lady and her mother, both named Tangwystl ferch Llywarch, and one of whom bore a base son to Gwynedd's Llewelyn ap Iorwerth shortly before that man became king.  The earliest extant source which mentions these ladies was in a manuscript [1] written by Gutun Owain in the final quarter of the 15th century.  Here, we are told that:
 
          a.  The mother of Gruffudd ap Llewelyn ap Iorwerth Drwyndwn was Tangwystl ferch Llywarch Goch of Rhos, and
          b.  The mother of this Tangwystl was Tangwystl ferch Llywarch ap Bran, and
          c.  Tangwystl later married Ednyfed Fychan.*
 
           *as explained in the text below, we don't know how the citation identified which Tangwystl is meant, nor if it made her a wife or an unmarried consort of Ednyfed Fychan
 
          While that manuscript is not available online and no copies of it were ever published, it was made available to Peter Bartrum for his classic work on Welsh genealogies. Thus, we only know what Bartrum said was written on page 124, where the author cited pedigrees related to men of Anglesey.  While Bartrum's take was that the Tangwystl mentioned in item "c" above was the older lady who was the daughter of Llywarch ap Bran, we cannot say whether or not that identification was made perfectly clear in the manuscript.  It is definitely not clear to modern researchers.  In chart form, items a and b appear as:
 
 1020  Llywarch Hwlbwrch of Rhos*
                        l
      1055  Llywarch Goch
                        l
          1090  Cynan                    Bran  1090
                        l                           l
       1120  Iorwerth               Llywarch  1120   Owain Gwynedd 1100
                       l                            l                           l                      
    1150  Llywarch Goch====Tangwystl  1165     Iorwerth  1128
                                      l                                        l
                     1180  Tangwystl============Llewelyn  1169
                                                           l
                                            1194  Gruffudd

           *Our chart for the Rhos family was taken from other sources since the Gutun Owain pedigree did not extend the ancestry of Llywarch Goch of Rhos.
 
 
          Bartrum marked the c. 1180 Tangwystl as an unmarried mistress of Llewelyn who bore him a base son, but we don't know if that description was included in his source, or if Bartrum merely repeated the modern historian's assertion that this was an extra-marital event.
 
          If we were to add the final relationship (our item "c") to this chart, we must first decide which of the two ladies either married, or bore children for, Ednyfed Fychan.  There are other sources, from the 16th century, which speak to parts of our chart.  Peniarth 128, 760a (which IS available online) repeats everything we charted, except it conflates the 1150 Llywarch Goch with the 1055 Llywarch Goch.  It makes no mention of either Tangwystl having a relationship with Ednyfed Fychan, and says nothing to indicate that Gruffudd was a base son.
 
          Peniarth 127, 73 (also available online) mentions the Tangwystl ferch Llywarch Goch who bore the son, Gruffudd ap Llewelyn ap Iorwerth, but it calls her "Tangwystl Goch" and does not mention her mother at all.  Bartrum's charts do not assign a nickname to either lady.
 
          Although not a credible source, the current Wikipedia entry for Ednyfed Fychan follows the modern view that:
 
             "His first marriage was to Tangwystl ferch Llywarch, a known mistress of Llywelyn the Great, the daughter of Llywarch ap Bran"
 
          This view not only claims that it was a single lady named Tangwystl who bore a child or children for both King Llewelyn ap Iorwerth and Ednyfed Fychan, but that it was the older lady of that name, not a same-named daughter.  However, the early credible citations [2] are perfectly clear that Llewelyn ap Iorwerth's putative mistress was the younger Tangwystl, daughter of a same-named mother by Llywarch Goch of Rhos.  Unfortunately, these citations are not clear as to which of the two ladies bore sons for Ednyfed Fychan.  Bartrum's view is that it was NOT the same Tangwystl who was involved with both men, and we don't know if the sources he cites support him or not.
 
          Peniarth 127, 167 tells us that Ednyfed Fychan had sons Tudor, Llewelyn, Hywel, Iorwerth and Rhys by Tangwystl ferch Llywarch ap Bran, and follows that by stating that he had sons Gronwy and Gruffudd by Gwenllian ferch Lord Rhys.  A later insertion, written in the same hand, appears after the the listing of the first group of sons and before the second listing,  It mentions a Cynwrig ap Ednyfed Fychan but does not explicitly say who was his mother.  Bartrum assumed, by its position in the text, that Cynwrig was another son by Tangwystl. [3]
 
          Different citations [4] assert that Ednyfed Fychan also had two daughters by Gwenllian ferch Lord Rhys. Yet another source [5] says he had a third daughter, Angharad, but does not identify her mother.
 
          When we apply the standard birth-date analysis to the spouses of the children of Ednyfed Fychan, and to the children of those children, a strange pattern occurs.  All of the children he had by each lady appear to have been born c.1195 to c. 1210.  Thus, these were not sequential relationships with two wives.  Instead, some children were by his wife and some by his mistress, occurring in random but alternate sequence.
 
          The pattern of births confirms our suspicion that a lady named Tangwystl was a mistress of both Llewelyn Fawr ap Iorwerth and Ednyfed Fychan, while Gwenllian was the only lady the latter ever married. Since Tangwystl ferch Llywarch ap Bran was born no later than c. 1165 [6], the only way she could have been the mother of 6 sons of Ednyfed Fychan is if she bore those children between ages 30 and 45.  We know this lady had a same-named daughter born c. 1180 and cannot accept her also bearing 6 sons between 1195 and 1210. Accordingly, we conclude that it was the c. 1180 Tangwyslt ferch Llywarch Goch of Rhos who bore children for both Llewelyn Fawr and for Ednyfed Fychan.
 
          Those who would identify Ednyfed Fychan's mistress as a daughter if Llywarch ap Bran would also have us believe that (a) two longtime friends, men both in their late 20's, met a 29 year old lady with a 14 year old daughter, and (b) Llewelyn Fawr seduced the younger girl while Ednyfed Fychan bedded down with her mother, and kept the older lady as his mistress baby-momma for at least 15 years.  We find it much more likely that Ednyfed's mistress was Tangwystl ferch Llywarch Goch, the same young lady who first bore a son, Gruffudd, to Llewelyn ap Iorwerth, and that the authors of those citations who call her "ferch Llywarch ap Bran" simply misidentified the Llywarch who was her father. 
 
          Our charting of these relationships appears as:
 
1165 Tangwystl ferch Llywarch ap Bran===Llywarch Goch of Rhos 
                                                           l                                1150
            1169 Llewelyn Fawr==/==Tangwystl==/==Ednyfed Fychan 
                                             l        1180         l                      1165
                             1194  Gruffudd             6 sons  1195-1210
 

NOTES:
[1]  Pen. 129. 124
[2]  Pen 127, 73 & 200; Pen 128, 760a; Pen 134, 62 & 302
[3]  Bartrum charted another base son of Ednyfed Fychan, Tudor Gwilltin, as born c. 1230.  We believe this was actually a son of Tudor ap Ednyfed Fychan
[4]  A daughter, Gwenllian, is cited in Pen 131, 208; Dwnn ii, 53; Pen 176, 168, 181 & 263; and Pen 134, 146.  A daughter, Gwladys, is cited in Cardiff 4.265, 29; Harl 2414, 18 and Pen 287, 583
[5] Harl 1974, 49
[6] Because she had a daughter c. 1180 who had a son c. 1194