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                                         RHYDDERCH  DDU  OF TAL-Y-LLYN
                                                     By Darrell Wolcott
          Bartrum [1] charts a single Rhydderch Ddu but claims the sources give him two different ancestries.  On his chart "Drymbenog 1", he makes him "ap Dafydd ap Cadwgan ap Drymbenog ap Maenrych" and alternately, "ap Cadwgan Fawr ap Bleddyn ap Rhiwallon Rwth ".  He originally dated him to his Generation 5 (c. 1170) on this chart, but labels the same man as Generation 4 in his index of names. He subsequently corrected the chart to show Generation 4 for Rhydderch Ddu, and moved his predecessors, back to Rhiwallon Rwth at Generation 1, respectively, but he did nothing with the line leading back to Drymbenog, still holding to a single man named Rhydderch Ddu. 
          He also dates him to his Generation 4 in his chart "Rhydderch Ddu 1". On the latter chart, he dates a son, Owain, to Generation 5 and attaches four sons to Owain.  Two of those sons he dates to Generation 6 and the other two to Generation 7.
          Bartrum matches his Generation 4 Rhydderch Ddu with wife, Lleuci (1145) ferch Cadwgan (1110) ap Rhys (1075) ap Morda Frych (1040) [2] and his Generation 5 Owain with wife Mawd (1165) ferch Aaron (1130) ap Rhys (1095) ap Bledri (1065) ap Cadifor Fawr (1030).  He admits, however, that his sources called the lady Mawd ferch Aaron ap Bledri. [3]  After reviewing the entire Cadifor Fawr pedigree, we chart these two marriages as:
                                                                      Cadifor Fawr  1030
 1040  Morda Frych         Drymbenog  1050           Bledri  1065
                  l                          l                                l
      1075  Rhys                 Cadwgan  1085             Rhys  1095
                  l                          l                                l
  1110  Cadwgan                Dafydd  1115               Bledri  1130 
                  l                          l                                l
    1145  Lleuci======Rhydderch Ddu  1145       Aaron  1160
                             l                                                l
               1180  Owain =================Mawd  1195

          While it is unlikely that the charted Lleuci was the mother of Owain, she could have been a later-in-life consort of Rhydderch Ddu, who was clearly born in Bartrum's Generation 4.
          The alternate ancestry charted by Bartrum belongs to a wholly different man named Rhydderch Ddu.  But he cannot be dated by his assigned ancestry.  Bartrum points us to a series of pedigrees [4] which place his ancestor, Rhiwallon Rwth, as a brother to the c. 980 Dryffin, who was grandfather of King Bleddyn ap Maenyrch.  However, none of those pedigrees are chronologically stable even when modified as Bartrum suggests. [5]

          Even with Bartrum's chart correction dating Rhiwallon Rwth to his Generation 1, he is left with a Rhiwallon Rwth that falls over a generation earlier than he should, and a Rhydderch Ddu who falls in Generation 4 for one of his lines, and Generation 5, for the other line.  It is necessary to examine those folks who descended from Rhydderch Ddu (other than those already identified as belonging to Rhydderch Ddu #1) in order to date this other same-named man. 
          In our first chart above, we show an Owain (Generation 5) as a son of Rhydderch Ddu (Generation 4).  This Owain should be the father of sons Arod and Owain Fychan since those men are dated Generation 6.  We shall begin our analysis, then, with Richard of Generation 7 as a likely grandson of a different Rhydderch Ddu, one born in Generation 5:

1080  Rhiwallon Rwth
   1110  Bleddyn                                1100 Gwaithfoed of Meirionydd
                 l                                                              l
1145  Cadwgan Fawr            Hoedliw  1140           Cadifor  1130
                 l                              l                              l
1175  Rhydderch Ddu           Llewelyn  1170          Iorwerth  1165
                 l                              l                              l
   1205  Owain                       Rhys  1205             Gruffudd  1195
                 l                              l                              l
   1235  Richard                    Richard  1240      Gruffudd Foel  1230
                 l                              l                              l
   1265  Dafydd                     Hywel  1270             Ieuan  1260
                 l                              l                              l
    1295  Hywel                      Ieuan  1300        Ieuan Llwyd  1295
                 l                              l                              l
    1330  Ieuan=========daughter [6]  1335     Dafydd  1325
                                l                                              l
                  1365   Elen==================Ieuan [7] 1355

          These marriages place Rhiwallon Rwth in Bartrum's Generation 2 and in the same generation as sons of King Bleddyn, Drymbenog, Rhiwallon and Dryffin ap Maenyrch.  It is thus possible that Rhiwallon Rwth was a son of one of those brothers.   However, none of the 9 citations which mention him also name his father. [8] Since Bartrum mishandled the entire family which descended from Dryffin ap Maenyrch ap Dryffin, we elected to chart Rhiwallon Rwth as a son of that Dryffin ap Maenyrch.
          The other son of Owain ap Rhydderch Ddu whom Bartrum dates to his Generation 7 was Rhys ap Owain.  In analyzing the family of this Rhys, we found Brycheiniog families who descended from Eidio Wyllt [9] which made marriage matches with families descended from both of the men named Rhydderch Ddu: 


          This chart shows a same-named string of men descended from both men named Rhydderch Ddu.  The string actually extends a generation further since the Einion Cest of c. 1305 also had a son named Madog but nicknamed Sais. [10]  Three other children charted by Bartrum for Einion Cest also belong to this later Einion Cest. [11]
          In reviewing the descendants of Rhys ap Owain ap Rhydderch Ddu, we found one other major error on the Bartrum chart "Rhydderch Ddu 6".  In the column found at the far left of this Bartrum chart, Hywel Fychan was NOT a son of either Llewelyn ap Rhys ap Owain which appear in our chart. There was one more same-named string of men in this family:

                                        1145  Rhydderch Ddu
                                            1180  Owain
                                              1210  Rhys
                         l                                                           l                                       
          1240  Llewelyn                                     1240  Rhydderch
  (no son named Hywel Fychan)                          1270  Owain
                                                                         1305  Rhys
                                                                      1335  Llewelyn
                                                                   1370  Hywel Fychan
                                                                      1400  Ieuan Ddu
                                                                        1430  Nest

          Nest (1430) ferch Ieuan Ddu married Iorwerth (1415) ap Gruffudd Llwyd (1380) ap Iorwerth (1350) ap Gruffudd Fychan (1320) ap Dafydd Fongam (1280) ap Dafydd (1250) ap Meurig Goch (1220) ap Gruffudd (1185) ap Cadifor (1155) ap Selyf (1125) ap Cadifor (1090) ap Selyf (1055) of Dyfed. [12]
          The earliest citation to assign a residence location to Rhydderch Ddu was Peniarth Ms 131, 222, penned by Ieuan Brechfa about the year 1500.  Brechfa said that Rhydderch Ddu #2, the one whose father was Cadwgan Fawr, resided in the parish of Tal-y-llyn.  That parish was in the commote of Talgarth in the northern part of the cantref of Talgarth in the kingdom of Brycheiniog.
          About 100 years later, Lewis Dwnn (vol i, 205) penned a pedigree of Rhydderch Ddu #1, whose father was named Dafydd, which placed that Rhydderch Ddu at Bwlch yr arllwys, a manor in the commote of Ystrad Yw in the southern part of the cantref of Talgarth.  While this manor may have been as close as 1 mile to as much as 12 miles from a manor in Tal-y-llyn, an exact location cannot be determined for either man's residence.  Dwnn actually drew from Brechfa, assigning his Rhydderch Ddu to both Tal-y-llyn and Bwlch yr arllwys.
          The fact that both men named Rhydderch Ddu began a 200 year string of same named sons, indicates the families remained in close contact for an extended period and likely did not live very far apart. 

[1]  Peter Bartrum "Welsh Genealogies AD 300 - 1400", 8 volumes, 1974, University of Wales Press
[2]  Harl. 1975, 46 and Harl. 5835, 46 cite this marriage
[3]  Harl. 1975, 60 and Harl. 5835, 47 cite the marriage, calling her Mawd ferch Aron ap Bledri. 
[4]  See pedigree #15 - Maenyrch, pedigrees (3) and (4) and sources labeled "B" in both, in "Pedigrees of the Welsh Tribal Patriarchs" published in Vol XII number 2, The National Library of Wales Journal, 1963
[5]  See our paper on Welshmen Named Maenyrch at the link below:
[6]  Protheroe IV, 193 cites this marriage
[7] Pen. 131, 243 cites this marriage
[8] Pen. 132, 125; Pen. 132, 126;Pen. 136, 350; Pen. 140, 135; Mostyn 114, 4; Pen. 131,263; Pen 140, 136; Pen. 133, 115; Pen. 131,222
[9]  See our paper on Eidio Wyllt at the following link:
[10]  Protheroe IV. 194 cites "Thomas ap Madog Sais ap Einion Cest"
[11] These were  Gwilym, Marged and the aforementioned Tangwystl, all born c. 1335/40 and children of the c. 1305 Einion Cest
[12] The charted marriage is cited in Pen. 131, 228