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Legendary History Prior to 1st Century BC
Beli Mawr and Llyr Llediath in Welsh Pedigrees
The Bartrum "Welsh Genealogies"
Bartrum's "Pedigrees of the Welsh Tribal Patriarchs"
A study in charting medieval citations
The Evolution of the "Padriarc Brenin" Pedigree
Generational Gaps and the Welsh Laws
Minimum Age for Welsh Kingship in the Eleventh Century
The Lands of the Silures
Catel Durnluc aka Cadell Ddyrnllwg
Ancient Powys
The Royal Family of Powys
The Royal Family of Gwynedd
The 5 Plebian Tribes of Wales
Maxen Wledig of Welsh Legend
Maxen Wledig and the Welsh Genealogies
Anwn Dynod ap Maxen Wledig
Constans I and his 343 Visit to Britain
Glast and the Glastening
Composite Lives of St Beuno
Rethinking the Gwent Pedigrees
The Father of Tewdrig of Gwent
Another Look at Teithfallt of Gwent
Ynyr Gwent and Caradog Freich Fras
Llowarch ap Bran, Lord of Menai
Rulers of Brycheiniog - The Unanswered Questions
Lluan ferch Brychan
The Herbert Family Pedigree
Edwin of Tegeingl and his Family
Angharad, Heiress of Mostyn
Ithel of Bryn in Powys
Idnerth Benfras of Maesbrook
Henry, the Forgotten Son of Cadwgan ap Bleddyn
The Muddled Pedigree of Sir John Wynn of Gwydir
The Mysterious Peverel Family
The Clan of Tudor Trevor
The Other "Sir Roger of Powys"
Ancestry of Ieuaf ap Adda ap Awr of Trevor
The Retaking of Northeast Wales
Hedd Molwynog or Hedd ap Alunog of Llanfair Talhearn
"Meuter Fawr" son of Hedd ap Alunog
The Medieval "redating" of Braint Hir
Aaron Paen ap Y Paen Hen
Welsh Claims to Ceri after 1179
The Battle of Mynydd Carn
Trahaearn ap Caradog of Arwystli
Cadafael Ynfyd of Cydewain
Maredudd ap Robert, Lord of Cedewain
Cadwgan of Nannau
Maredudd ap Owain, King of Deheubarth
What Really Happened in Deheubarth in 1022?
Two Families headed by a Rhydderch ap Iestyn
The Era of Llewelyn ap Seisyll
Cynfyn ap Gwerystan, the Interim King
The Consorts and Children of Gruffudd ap Llewelyn
The 1039 Battle at Rhyd y Groes
The First Wife of Bleddyn ap Cynfyn
Hywel ap Gronwy of Deheubarth
The Brief Life of Gruffudd ap Maredudd
The Other Gwenwynwyn
Eunydd son of Gwenllian
Sandde Hardd of Mortyn
The Floruit of Einion ap Seisyllt
The Enigmatic Elystan Glodrydd
Cowryd ap Cadfan of Dyffryn Clwyd
Owain ap Cadwgan and Nest ferch Rhys - An Historic Fiction?
The "sons" of Owain ap Cadwgan ap Bleddyn
The Betrayal by Meirion Goch Revisited
Gwyn Ddistain, seneschal for Llewelyn Fawr
The Men of Lleyn - How They Got There
Trahaearn Goch of Lleyn
Einion vs Iestyn ap Gwrgan - The Conquest of Glamorgan
Dafydd Goch ap Dafydd - His Real Ancestry
Thomas ap Rhodri - Father of Owain "Lawgoch"
The "Malpas" Family in Cheshire
Einion ap Celynin of Llwydiarth
Marchweithian, Lord of Is Aled, Rhufoniog
Osbwrn Wyddel of Cors Gedol
Bradwen of Llys Bradwen in Meirionydd
Ednowain ap Bradwen
Sorting out the Gwaithfoeds
Three Men called Iorwerth Goch "ap Maredudd"
The Caradog of Gwynedd With 3 Fathers
Who Was Sir Robert Pounderling?
Eidio Wyllt - What Was His Birthname?
The Legendary Kingdom of Seisyllwg
The Royal Family of Ceredigion
Llewelyn ap Hoedliw, Lord of Is Cerdin
The Ancestry of Owain Glyndwr
Welsh Ancestry of the Tudor Dynasty
Gruffudd ap Rhys, the Homeless Prince
The Children of Lord Rhys
Maredudd Gethin ap Lord Rhys
The 'Next Heir' of Morgan of Caerleon
Pedigree of the ancient Lords of Ial
The Shropshire Walcot Family
Pedigree of "Ednowain Bendew II"
Pedigree of Cynddelw Gam
                              THE OTHER "SIR ROGER OF POWYS"
                                          By Darrell Wolcott
 
         The familiar man known as Roger of Powys was a son of Gronwy ap Tudor ap Rhys Sais II and held Whittington in Salop in the mid-twelfth century.  He died about 1186 and had a brother named Jonas.  They were half-brothers of the Peverel siblings which included Miletta who married Warin de Metz and gave birth to the first Fulk fitz Warin.
This Roger was followed by his son, Meurig, to whom King Henry II confirmed possession of Whittington.[1]
 
         The medieval pedigrees[2] also claim Sir Roger of Powys had sons named Roger Fychan and Gronwy, that he was a Knight of Rhodes and married Sissely ferch Hwfa ap Iorwerth ap Gruffudd ap Ieuaf ap Ninniaw ap Cynwrig ap Rhiwallon.  They further claim Roger divided his lands at Estwick between those two sons, with Gronwy also receiving a manor called Pentref Madog.  The pedigrees claim his eldest son, Meurig, received Whittington.
 
         Our work on this family indicates two wholly different men called Roger of Powys are rolled into one by the pedigrees.  While both appear to have descended from Tudor Trevor, the second Roger (who lived over 100 years after the first) probably belongs to the family of Iddon ap Rhys Sais II who held lands at Dudleston north of Ellesmere.  We have dated this later Roger by these marriage connections:
 
                                                                  Rhys Sais  1025
                                                                        l
                                                                     Tudor  1055
                                                                        l
  1095  Ninniaw ap Cynwrig                              Bleddyn  1085
                      l                                                 l
          1130  Ieuaf                                           Owain  1120
                      l                                                 l
         1165  Gruffudd                                      Bleddyn [3] 1150
                      l                                                 l
         1200  Iorwerth                                       Owain  1180
                      l                                                 l
           1230  Hwfa                                      Iorwerth Hen  1210
                      l                                                 l     
          1260  Sissely===Sir Roger 1245            Iorwerth Fychan  1240
                              l                                         l      
                 1275  Gronwy of Estwick               Iorwerth Foel 1270
              __________l_______                      _____l_____
              l                           l                     l                l
 1305  Llewelyn                 Ieuan 1310   Ednyfed Gam  Gruffudd 1300
              l                           l                     l  1305        l
 1335  Llewelyn Fychan     Llewelyn 1345   Llewelyn     Madog Lloyd
              l                           l                     l  1335         l   1330
1365  Gruffudd*               Dafydd  1375      Madog       Dafydd
              l                           l                     l  1370         l  1360
 1395  Llewelyn                  Ieuan 1410      Richard        Madog
              l                           l                     l  1405         l  1390
 1425  Gruffudd                     l                     l            Dafydd
              l                           l                     l                l  1420
   1455  Efa===========Dafydd** 1440     John======Maud
                           l                                1440              l  1450
         1470  Philip Brid or Bride====================Alison  1475
                                                         l
                                           1500  Margaret==James Eyton 1495
                                                                l
                                                   William Eyton*** 1525 (lv 1592)
                                                                l  
                                                       James Eyton  1560  
                                                      (also lv 1592)
 
        *This Gruffudd is called "of Pentref Madog in Dudleston"
          **This Dafydd is called "of Estwick"
          ***William provided the pedigree to Lewys Dwnn in 1592
 
        Further confirmation of the chronology of the second man named Roger can be seen by another branch of his descendants:
      
                                                            Rhys Sais I  1025
                                                                   l
                                                                Tudor  1055
                                                   __________l________
                                                   l                             l
                                              Bleddyn  1085           Gronwy 1090
                                                   l                             l
                                            Rhys Sais II  1115         Roger 1120
                                                   l                       (Whittington)
                                               Tudor  1145
                                                   l
                                              Bleddyn  1175
                                                   l
                                               Owain  1205
                                                   l
            1245  Sir Roger             Cynwrig  1240
                           l                       l
            1280  Roger Fychan     Cynwrig Sais  1270
                           l                       l
            1315  Maredudd             Gwilym  1300
                           l                       l
              1345  Gwerfyl=======Ieuan Foel[8]  1335
                     (Estwick)
   

        Having placed the Roger of Estwick (now called Eastwick) chronologically as occurring over 100 years after the known era of the Roger who held Whittington, we turn our attention to his identification. The pedigree evidence[4] tells us that Dudleston had been the share inherited by Iddon ap Rhys Sais II (the latter born c. 1115), and we find a single son, Trahaearn, cited for Iddon.  That man is credited with 4 sons who, together with their inheritance, were:
 
        1.  Morgan, who received Pentref Morgan
        2.  Heilyn, who received Pentref Heilyn
        3.  Hwfa, who received Plas Thomas
        4.  Cadifor, who received Cilhendref
 
        These four brothers would have been born c. 1210/1215 or exactly the generation where one should expect to find the father of a Roger of Powys born c. 1245.  We suspect there was a 5th brother[5] named Madog whose share of Trahaearn's lands was called Pentref Madog.  Probably the name of a single manor, Pentref Madog and the surrounding land then called Estwick are ascribed to the Sir Roger of c. 1245 so we feel comfortable positing that he was the son of Madog ap Trahaearn ap Iddon.
 
        Having now determined both by chronology and land holdings that the Roger of Whittington was father to Meurig (and his siblings Maredudd and Thomas) and that the Roger of Dudleston was father to Roger Fychan and Gronwy[6], the final question to be resolved is which man was a "Knight of Rhodes".  Known as the Hospitallers of Jerusalem until 1309 when the order acquired the island of Rhodes, it appears that sometime between 1165 and 1187, Roger of Whittington donated land called Halston from his demense property to the Hospitallers on which they built a preceptory.[7]  He also granted the tithes from Whittington to Halston, apparently for them providing a chaplain at Whittington Castle.  Although it is possible the 13th century Roger of Dudleston was also a member of that order (his son Roger Fychan of Estwick would have been living when the name Knights of Rhodes was first used), it is more likely the "Sir" which prefixes the later Roger was earned militarily.  Whether or not the earlier Roger of Whittington was a dedicated member of the religious and charitable order of Hospitallers, he may well have been given its honorary title of "Knight" for his financial support to them. And no sources have been seen to connect Roger of Dudleston to the Hospitallers.
 
        

NOTES:
[1] A comprehensive study of Roger of Powys was written by Frederick Suppe and published in The Welsh History Review, vol 21, June 2002, pp 1-23.  He is also discussed by Joseph Morris in his article on the Fitz-Warine family published in Archaeologia Cambrensis, 1852, pp 282-291.  Some of the genealogy is cited by J.Y.W. Lloyd in "History of Powys Fadog", vol iii, pp 381-384 and pp 401/402.  Also see the paper elsewhere on this site entitled "The Mysterious Peverel Family".
[2] Dwnn i, 324 and Harleian Ms 4181
[3] This family is often confused with a cousin line descended from Owain ap Bleddyn ap Tudor ap Rhys Sais.  The Bleddyn ap Owain of c. 1150 had a brother, Iorwerth Hen ap Owain, born c. 1155.  That family continued with an Iorwerth Fychan (c. 1190), Iorwerth Foel (c. 1225), Ednyfed (c. 1260), Iorwerth (c. 1295)
[4] Harlean Ms 4181; Lloyd's "History of Powys Fadog", vol iv pp 88-96
[5] A pedigree for the family of Vaughan of Plas Thomas was compiled in 1675 by John Salusbury (reproduced in "History of Powys Fadog" vol iv, pp 95) in which Hwfa was described as the fifth son of Trahaearn ap Iddon
[6] Frederick Suppe's article referenced in note 1 incorrectly charts as brothers the sons of both men named Roger, and would assign them all to Roger of Whittington. This even though he describes Roger son of Roger as "Estwick" and assigns him the son, Maredudd, who (from the marriage of his daughter) must have occurred c. 1315
[7] "House of Knights Hospitallers: Preceptory at Halston" from the Victorian County History of Shropshire, vol 2, pp 87/88
[8] This marriage is also cited in Dwnn i, 324