Guest-written Papers
Reference Abbreviations
Guidance Articles for Researchers
Single Family Analysis
Families of Mixed Origin
Family Pedigrees
Mis-identified Same-Named People in Wales
Battles and Historical Events
Ancient Welsh Territories
Welshmen in Llydaw, Brittany
The Men of the North
Legendary History Prior to 1st Century BC
Beli Mawr and Llyr Llediath in Welsh Pedigrees
Papers Related to Maxen Wledig
Bartrum's "Pedigrees of the Welsh Tribal Patriarchs"
Britain's Royal Roman Family
The Royal Family of Powys
2nd Powys Royal Dynasty
The Royal Family of Gwynedd
Men Descended from Tudwal Gloff
Royal Family of Gwent/ Glamorgan
Royal Family of Brycheiniog
15 Noble Tribes of Gwynedd
The 5 Plebian Tribes of Wales
Glast and the Glastening
Papers about Rhiryd Flaidd and Penllyn
The Men of Collwyn ap Tangno of Lleyn
Edwin of Tegeingl and his Family
Ednowain Bendew in Welsh pedigrees
Ithel of Bryn in Powys
Idnerth Benfras of Maesbrook
Tudor Trefor and his Family
Trahaearn ap Caradog of Arwystli
The Family of Trahaearn ap Caradog
Cadafael Ynfyd of Cydewain
Maredudd ap Owain, King of Deheubarth
Sandde Hardd of Mortyn
The Floruit of Einion ap Seisyllt
The 5 Dafydd Llwyds of Llanwrin Parish
Cowryd ap Cadfan of Dyffryn Clwyd
Osbwrn Wyddel of Cors Gedol
Bradwen of Llys Bradwen in Meirionydd
Who Was Sir Robert Pounderling?
Sir Aaron ap Rhys
Eidio Wyllt - What Was His Birthname?
Ifor Bach, Lord of Senghenydd
Ancestors and Children of the Lord Rhys
                                  EINION AP LLYWARCH OF CARMARTHENSHIRE
                                                  By Darrell Wolcott
       In an earlier paper[1], we had observed there were two men called Einion ap Llywarch who descended from Pasgen ap Urien. Further research discloses there were at least four men of that name in this extended family, respectively born c. 1005, c. 1095, c. 1130 and c. 1165 whom Bartrum has rolled into a single man in his charts[2].  A cursory look at those charts will find a host of chronologically impossible marriage matches for men said to descend from a single Einion ap Llywarch. 
         Another confounding factor in charting this early family is presented by a Sir Elidyr Ddu whom some early writers date contemporarily with Richard the Lionhearted (thus c. 1160) and others identify with an Elidyr Du who was alive in 1302/3 when fined for withdrawing a lawsuit laid before the hundred court in Dinefwr[3].  Pedigree citations exist which say men of that name in both eras descended from an Einion ap Llywarch.  Furthermore, even Bartrum's charts list children of Elidyr Ddu born a full generation apart which indicates the liklihood of men of that name born c. 1255 and c. 1295.  Some of the citations[4] actually show the nickname as "dy" or "ddy" or "ddwy" so it is possible one or more of the men was, in his lifetime, called "dwy" meaning "two" or Elidyr II ap Elidyr.
        In his 1963 "Pedigrees of the Welsh Tribal Patriarchs"[5] Bartrum mentions "Einion ap Llywarch ap Rhiryd" and "Einion ap Llywarch ap Cynhaethwy", but his 1974 charts[6] have combined those men into a single person whom he dates c. 1130.  Our work shows these to have been two different men, and also identifies an "Einion ap Llywarch ap Gronwy" and an "Einion ap Llywarch ap Rhys"...all within the same extended family. 
        The ancestor of the family was Pasgen ap Urien[7], the man who fled Rhos about 892/93 and later became Lord of Gower.  He had brought two young sons with him, including Ynyr ap Pasgen[8] born c. 880.  Descended from this Ynyr were:
                               880  Ynyr ap Pasgen
                                    910  Mor
                                  940  Rhiryd
                                975  Llywarch
             l                                                           l
 1010  Rhun                                        1005  Einion (1)
             l                                                          l
1040  Seisyll                                      1035  Gronwy
             l                                               ______l____________
             l                                              l                                 l
1070 Gwrwared                         1070 Rhys              1065  Llywarch
             l                                             l                                 l
1100 Cynhaethwy                   1100 Llywarch             1095  Einion(2)
             l                                             l                                 l
1130  Llywarch                       1130  Einion(4)           1130  Gronwy
         _l__________                             l                                 l
         l                   l                             l                                 l
1165 Einion(3)  Sir Elidyr        1160  Gronwy                1165  Rhys
             l              Ddu (5)                   l
 1195  Gronwy                        1190  Rhys
             l                                            l
  1225  Rhys                           1225  Elidyr
             l                                            l     
  1260  Elidyr                         1255  Elidyr II(7)
 1295  Elidyr II(6)
         (1)  This Einion ap Llywarch is the one cited as "ap Rhiryd" in Pen. 128, 51.  Pen 131, 295 omits "Ynyr" in his ancestry, while both Pen. 127, 152 and Pen. 138, 288 reverse the position of two earlier men to say "Ynyr ap Mor ap Pasgen".  No marriage matches are cited for any of these 9th to 11th century men, so our estimated dating relies on later men.  We find a "Rhys ap Gronwy ap Einion ap Llywarch" who married Marged ferch Gruffudd ap Cydrich ap Gwaithfoed[9]; this lady would date from c. 1080.  We should expect the grandfather of her husband to be born c. 1005/1010...our Einion #1. 
                      975  Llywarch     Gwaithfoed of Ystrad Tywy  975
                                  l                   l
                      1005  Einion         Cydrich  1005
                                  l                   l
                     1035  Gronwy        Gruffudd  1045
                                  l                   l
                     1070  Rhys=====Marged  1080
         (2)  The only spouse cited for any Einion ap Llywarch is Anna ferch Llewelyn ap Cadifor Fawr[10], a lady born c. 1100.  This leads us to the conclusion that the name string "Gronwy ap Einion ap Llywarch" was repeated following the c. 1035 Gronwy, with all extant citations omitting one set of 3 men.  This can also be seen with the spouses cited for a "Gronwy ap Einion ap Llywarch; one is Lliwelydd ferch Einion Clud ap Madog ap Idnerth ap Cadwgan ap Elystan Glodrydd[11], a lady born c. 1145.   Accordingly, we find the man born c. 1095 as our Einion #2:
                                        Cadifor Fawr  1030       Idnerth  1050
                                                l                              l
              1065  Llywarch        Llewelyn 1060          Madog  1080
                             l                  l                              l
              1095  Einion=====Anna  1100          Einion Clud  1115
                                     l                                         l
                        1130  Gronwy============Lliwelydd  1145
          The above Gronwy ap Einion also married Gwladys (c. 1145) ferch Cadifor (c. 1115) ap Gwgan (c. 1075) ap Bleddyn (c. 1045) ap Maenyrch[12] of Brychieniog.  He had a daughter, Alis (c. 1165) who married Gwrgeneu (c. 1150) ap Uchdryd (c. 1115) ap Aleth (c. 1085) ap Gwrgeneu (c. 1055) ap Uchdryd (c. 1020) ap Aleth (c. 990) ap Llawr (c. 960) of Dyfed[14], also descended from Tudwal Gloff.
         (3) This Einion ap Llywarch is the one cited as "ap Cynhaethwy" in Cardiff Ms 10, 119, Mostyn Ms 121b, 111 and Dwnn i, 32.  Two other citations[15] also mention this Einion, but omit Rhiryd from his ancestry.  All 5 mentioned citations omit "Ynyr" in the 9th century ancestry. Dwnn i, 210 manages to maintain the correct chronology for the early family by inserting an "Anarawd" between Cynhaethwy and Gwrwared to make up for omitting Ynyr.  It errs, however, in assigning spouses to the ensuing Gronwy and Rhys which belong to men of that name born generations earlier and whom we correctly assigned in our discussions of earlier Einions.  Again, our dating of this Einion is dependent on marriage matches made by later men, but our Einion #3 born c. 1165 is the direct ancestor of Sir Rhys ap Thomas and the Rice family of Newton.
         (4)  This Einion ap Llywarch is the ancestor of the Rhys ap Gronwy ap Einion ap Llywarch who married Nest ferch Dafydd Fras ap Hywel Fychan ap Rhydderch ap Maredudd Fras (c. 1080) ap Rhydderch (c. 1053) ap Tewdwr[16] (that Rhydderch being a brother of King Rhys ap Tewdwr).  He is also the ancestor of the Elidyr ap Rhys ap Gronwy ap Einion ap Llywarch, which Elidyr married Gwladys ferch Philip ap y Bach ap Gwaithfoed II of Gwent[17]. Thus, an Elidyr ap Rhys born c. 1225 and a Rhys ap Gronwy born c. 1195 yield our Einion #4 born c. 1130.  Again, this branch of the family has repeated the 4-name string "Rhys ap Gronwy ap Llywarch ap Einion" and one set of names has been omitted in the citations by writers who thought it was wrongly duplicated:
           975  Llywarch ap Rhiryd     
          1005  Einion (#1 above)    Tewdwr 1015
                       l                           l                        
          1035  Gronwy               Rhydderch 1050        
                       l                           l
           1070  Rhys                 Maredudd Fras 1080 
                       l                           l
         1100  Llywarch              Rhydderch 1115
                       l                           l
           1130  Einion             Hywel Fychan 1145    Gwaithfoed 1135
                       l                           l                            l
          1160  Gronwy*              Dafydd Fras 1175   y Bach 1170
                       l                           l                            l
           1190  Rhys=========Nest 1205             Philip 1200
                                    l                                           l
                        1225  Elidyr==============Gwladys 1235
      This Gronwy also had a daughter, Sioned (1200) who married Llewelyn Foel (1185) ap Moriddig Fychan (1150) ap Moriddig (1120) ap Blegored (1090) ap Dyfnwal (1060) ap Eunydd Gwyn (1030) descended from Tudwal Gloff
          (5)  This Sir Elidyr Ddu is the man said to have followed Richard the Lionhearted on his 1191 crusade to the Holy Land[18].  It is impossible to say whether he was called "Ddu" in his lifetime since historians have completely confounded him with later men called Elidyr Ddu (or perhaps "two") He is the Elidyr Ddu who married Sissely (born c. 1175) ferch Seisyllt ap Llewelyn ap Moriddig Warwyn ap Drymbenog[19], the latter being a brother of Bleddyn ap Maenyrch of Brychieniog. He did NOT have a son named Elidyr, but he did have a daughter Catryn who married Gruffudd Gwyr ap Cadifor[20] descended from Bleddyn ap Maenyrch.  That Gruffudd was born c. 1175 in both my charts and those of Bartrum, but must have been in the 4th generation after Bleddyn and not the 3rd.  Thus a wife born c. 1175 and a daughter born c. 1190 yields our Elidyr Ddu #1 born c. 1160:
           975  Llywarch
           1010  Rhun            Maenyrch 1015
                       l                      l - - - - - - - - - - - - l         
         1040  Seisyll          Drymbenog 1050       Bleddyn 1045
                       l                      l                            l
        1070  Gwrwared         Moriddig 1080         Gwgan  1075
                       l                      l                            l
      1100  Cynhaethwy        Llewelyn 1115             x (a)
                       l                      l                            l
        1130  Llywarch           Seisyllt 1145          Cadifor 1140
                       l                      l                            l
   1160  Sir Elidyr (Ddu?)==Sissely 1175                l
                                      l                                    l
                        1190  Catryn==========Gruffudd Gwyr 1175
       (a) We suspect the missing generation was either another Gwgan or another Cadifor, omitted from pedigrees by scribes who thought it was a duplication NOTE: Subsequent research indicates the son of Bleddyn was called Gwgan Blaidd Gwyrdd (the green wolf) and his son was Gwgan ap Gwgan born c. 1105
        (6) This Elidyr ap Elidyr (whether called Ddu or II) was the direct male ancestor of Sir Rhys ap Thomas and the Rice family of Newton.  This Elidyr was the father of 3 daughters born c. 1325/1335 (Efa, Sioned, and one unnamed)[22] and 7 sons born c. 1325/1335 (Philip, Hywel, Gwilym Sais, Maredudd, Owain, Rhys Llwyd and Gruffudd). 
         (7) This Elidyr ap Elidyr (whether Ddu or II) was the father of 5 daughters born c. 1285/1295 (Catryn, Joan, Marged, Mallt and Gwenllian)[23] and 3 sons born c. 1285/1295 (Adda Fawr, Ieuan Goch and Philip).  Thus we have our final Elidyr #3 born c. 1255.  He is the most likely of our men called Elidyr Ddu to have been the man named in the 1302/03 court record mentioned earlier.  He is also the Elidyr ap Elidyr cited by Peniarth 176, 318 as marrying a daughter of Madog Hyddgam:
                  1100  Llywarch           Cadwgan of Nannau  1110
                               l                               l
                  1130  Einion #4                   Madog  1140
                               l                               l
                  1160  Gronwy                    Cadwgan  1170
                               l                               l
                    1190  Rhys                       Madog  1200
                               l                               l
                   1225  Elidyr                 Madog Hyddgam  1235
                               l                               l
                 1255  Elidyr Ddu=======daughter  1265
         Notice that both our Elidyr Ddu of 1255 and of 1295 named one son Philip.  While the Philip ap Elidyr Ddu of c. 1325 was the grandfather of Gruffudd ap Nicholas and that Gruffudd was the grandfather of Sir Rhys ap Thomas, a more obscure Philip ap Elidyr Ddu of c. 1290 had a daughter Gwladys born c. 1320 who married Gwilym ap Llewelyn Ddu[24] of c. 1305 and a second daughter named Sioned born c. 1325 who married Morys Castell[25] of c. 1315.  He also had two sons born c. 1330 named Dafydd Foel and Nicholas.
         Meanwhile, the Philip ap Elidyr Ddu born c. 1325 married Gwladys (c. 1330) ferch Dafydd Fras (c. 1295) ap Einion Goch (c. 1265) ap Einion Fychan (c. 1235) ap Einion Goeg (c. 1200) ap Rhiwallon (c. 1165) ap Bledri (c. 1130) ap Rhys (c. 1095) ap Bledri ap (c. 1065) Cadifor Fawr[26].  He had 3 daughters born c. 1355/1365 (Marged, Crisli and one unnamed)[27] and two sons born c. 1355/1365 (Nicholas and Gruffudd).
          That there were two men in this family residing in the village called Newton (built in the shadow of the old dynastic seat of Dinefwr) named Nicholas ap Philip ap Elidyr Ddu is also indicated by an old family tradition.  The story is told that Nicholas ap Philip had been wounded on his wedding day and his attending doctor told him that if he abstained from sex for a few days, he would recover from the wounds. But Nicholas declined to forego his wedding night "duty" and died shortly thereafter.  His son Gruffudd was conceived that night but never knew his father.  Most family pedigrees chart Gruffudd as the only son of Nicholas, but Welsh historian Ralph A. Griffiths has produced evidence that also living in Newton contemporarily with Gruffudd ap Nicholas were men named Philip Nicholas, John Nicholas and Gronwy ap Dafydd ap Nicholas[28].
         A John Nicholas[29] was Reeve of Newton in 1394/95 and appears to have been born too early to have been a son of the c. 1355 Nicholas, this John born perhaps c. 1365.  A John Nicholas is mentioned in a deed in 1419/20, as is a Philip Nicholas[30].  Gronwy ap Dafydd ap Nicholas was alive in 1467 in Newton[31].  The floruit of these men is more compatible with them being descended from a Nicholas ap Philip born c. 1330, so probably are NOT brothers of the Gruffudd ap Nicholas born c. 1385.  We would conclude that Gruffudd WAS an only child, and that the other men were sons of the Nicholas ap Philip who was the brother of Glwadys, Sioned and Dafydd Foel.
        When we extend our chart a few more generations, we find these "cousin" lines:
             1255  Elidyr ap Elidyr
                   1290  Phiip                         1295  Elidyr ap Elidyr
                              l                                             l
                 1330  Nicholas                            1325  Philip
                  _______l_________                               l
                 l                             l                               l
     1360  John(a)         1365  Dafydd            1355  Nicholas
                ll                             l                               l
1395  Philip and John(b) 1400 Gronwy(c)      1385  Gruffudd(d)
                                                                                    1415  Thomas
                                                               1449  Sir Rhys
          (a)  Adult in 1394/94
          (b)  Adults in 1419/20, John alive in 1459
          (c)  Still alive in 1467
          (d)  Only child as father died on wedding night
          The Gruffudd ap Nicholas born c. 1385 became a wealthy and powerful man in south Wales; his son Thomas (c. 1415) was a noted military combatant for the Lancastrian cause.  And Sir Rhys ap Thomas (c. 1449) is best known for his support of Henry Tudor at Bosworth, where King Richard III was slain and Henry Tudor thereafter became King Henry VII.[32]

[1] the paper is "Pasgen ap 'Urien Rheged' Lord of Gower" at the link below:
[2] P.C. Bartrum "Welsh Genealogies AD300-1400", vol 1, 51 and vol 2, 324
[3] Public Records Office, SC2/215/17 m.2 (1302-3) reproduced in "West Wales Historical Records", vol 1, p 185
[4] see examples in Dwnn i, 51, Dwnn ii, 49 and Dwnn ii, 52
[5] published in "National Library of Wales Journal", vol XIII (1963), pp 109/110
[6] op cit note 2
[7] the Rice family of Newton claims its ancestor Sir Elidyr Ddu adopted the style "fitz-Urien" to honor his descent from Urien.  The family thinks he meant the noted 6th century King of Rheged (not the 9th century man of Rhos) and this belief led to tales of the Arthurian-era Urien Rheged coming to Gower....a legend repeated to this day
[8] this son might have been named Mor ap Pasgen, father of Ynyr. Whether Ynyr was the father or son of Mor is not material to the timeline of the subsequent family
[9] Dwnn i, 131 and 210; West Wales Historical Record, vol 1, p 64
[10] Dwnn i, 114 and 140
[11] Dwnn i, 210
[12] Sir Thomas Phillips (ed)"Glamorganshire Pedigrees" (1845), p 16
[13] Dwnn i, 143 but corrupt for generations earlier than Blegwryd
[14] Dwnn i, 294
[15] Harleian Ms 5835, 9; Dwnn i, 131
[16] Dwnn ii, 49 with the ancestry of Dafydd Fras continued in Dwnn i, 47
[17] Pen. 131,273' Pen. 140, 316  For the ancestry of Gwaithfoed II of Gwent, see the paper "Sorting Out the Gwaithfoeds" at the link below:
[18] while this Sir Elidyr lived at the right time to be among the 1196 crusaders, no ancient sources confirm his participation.  Others say it was a 14th century Elidyr Ddu who simply went on a pilgrimage to the Holy Lands and was called a Knight of the Holy Sepulchre by the Welsh herald Lewys Dwnn.  That claim is also undocumented
[19] West Wales Historical Records, vol 1, 64 and Dwnn ii, 57.  Sissely is called "Elsbeth" in Dwnn i, 131 and 210 and in Dwnn ii,  48 and 49.  All the citations match her with an Elidyr Ddu born over 100 years later, an error which Bartrum follows in his charts where his match depicts a man marrying a lady born 2 generations before himself (she was actually 3 generations older than his c. 1270/80 Elidyr Ddu)
[20] Bodleian Add, C178, 97
[21] Pen. 176, 318 and Bodleian Add. 28033, 252.  The pedigree of Madog Hyddgam is found in the Cedwyn Ms reproduced in Montgomeryshire Collections, vol IX, pp 209/210
[22] Efa (c. 1330) ferch Elidyr Ddu is cited in Pen. 131, 266 & 270 as marrying Dafydd Llwyd (c. 1325) of Cydweli; Sioned (c. 1325) ferch Elidyr Ddu is cited in Pen. 131, 265 as marrying Dafydd (c. 1320) ap Maredudd (c. 1290) ap Gruffudd (c. 1260) ap Einion Sais (c. 1225) of Brycheiniog; unnamed daughter (c. 1325) ferch Elidyr Ddu is cited in Pen. 134, 200 as marrying Ieuan Llwyd (c. 1310) ap Llewelyn Ddu (c. 1270) ap Owain (c. 1240) ap Gruffudd (c. 1210) ap Elidyr (c. 1180) ap Owain (c. 1150) ap Idnerth (c. 1120) ap Llewelyn (c. 1085) ap Idnerth (c. 1050) ap Cadwgan (c. 1020) ap Elystan Glodrydd
[23] Catryn (c. 1290) ferch Elidyr Ddu is cited in Dwnn i, 274 as marrying Ieuan (c. 1280) ap Madog (c. 1250) ap Gwilym (c. 1220) ap Aaron (c. 1190) ap Rhys (c. 1160) ap Bledri (c. 1130) descended from Cadifor Fawr; Joan (c. 1285) ferch Elidyr Ddu is cited in Dwnn i, 144 & 275 as marrying John Cradock (c. 1270) ap William Cradock (c. 1235) ap Wilcock (c. 1200) ap Caradog of Newton(c. 1170) descended from Rhydderch ap Iestyn of Deheubarth; Marged (c. 1285) ferch Elidyr Ddu is cited in Bodleian Add, C178, 73 as having married Cadwgan (c. 1270) ap Iorwerth (c. 1240) ap Dafydd (c. 1210) ap Einion (c. 1175) ap Moriddig (c. 1145) ap Dafydd (c. 1115) ap Maredudd Fras (c. 1080) son of Rhydderch ap Tewdwr of Deheubarth; Mallt (c. 1285) ferch Elidyr Ddu is cited in Pen. 133, 39 as marrying Hywel (c. 1275) ap Dafydd Fongam (c. 1245) ap Dafydd (c. 1215) ap Dafydd (c. 1180) ap Meurig Goch (c. 1152) descended from Selyf of Dyfed; Gwenllian (c. 1290) ferch Elidyr II is cited in Dwnn i, 51 & 243 as marrying Ieuan (c. 1280) ap Rhys (c. 1250) ap Llowdden (c. 1215) ap Iorwerth (c. 1180) ap Gwrgeneu (c. 1150) ap Uchdryd (c. 1115) ap Aleth (c. 1085) descended from Tudwal Gloff. This citation errs in omitting "Gwrgeneu" in Ieuan's ancestry
[24] Harleian Ms 1975, 46; Dwnn i, 205/6 cites Llewelyn Ddu (c. 1270) ap Rhys (c. 1240) ap Arod (c. 1210) ap Owain (c. 1180) ap Rhydderch Ddu (c. 1145) ap Dafydd (c. 1115) ap Cadwgan (c. 1085) ap Drymbenog (c. 1050) of Brycheiniog
[25] Bodleian Add. C178, 20; Morys Castell was alive in 1364 and his pedigree points to c. 1315 for his birthdate
[26] Pen. 131, 220, 273 & 295; Pen. 140, 316
[27] Dwnn ii, 57 & Pen. 131, 232 say Crisli (or Sissely) ferch Philip ap Eildyr Ddu married Richard Aubrey (c. 1350) son of Thomas Aubrey (c. 1315).  A brother of that Richard Aubrey, Griffith, married the sister of Crisli, Marged, according to Pen. 133, 39.  A third, unnamed, daughter of Philip ap Elidyr Ddu is cited in Pen. 133, 64 as having married Dafydd (c. 1340) ap Hopkin (c. 1305) ap Gruffudd Gethin (c. 1265) of Ynys Dawe, Gower...a man descended from Rhys ap Cynan, brother of the first Gruffudd ap Cynan who was a nephew of Iago.
[28] Ralph A. Griffiths, "Gruffydd ap Nicholas and the House of Dinefwr" published in National Library of Wales Journal, vol XIII (1964), pp 256/268; sources for these sons of Nicholas are included in note 9 on p. 266
[29] Ralph A. Griffiths, "The Principality of Wales in the Later Middle Ages", Cardiff, 1972, page 358 reproduces the entry in the 1394-95 Public Records related to "John Nicholas" of Newton
[30] op cit note 28
[31] op cit note 28
[32] a full account of the activities of Gruffudd ap Nicholas, his son Thomas and grandson Sir Rhys can be found in Ralph A. Griffiths, "Sir Rhys ap Thomas and His Family", Cardiff, 1993

        The leading academic authority on this family is Ralph A. Griffiths, professor of Medieval History at the University of Wales at Swansea.  However, he makes no attempt to establish a workable timeline for the family prior to the 14th century...probably because his specialty is Medieval Wales. 
        Nothing in any of his published works indicates that he was aware there were several men named Einion ap Llywarch in the early family, nor that there were more than a single man called Elidyr Ddu.  He also assumes there was a single Nicholas ap Philip ap Elidyr Ddu even though he identifies John [ap] Nicholas as son of a man clearly born c. 1355, thus John about 1385, as holding a public office in 1394.
        That Professor Griffiths merely skimmed past the pre-1300 ancestry of this family without any in-depth research is also evident with this footnote (on page 9 of his work on Sir Rhys ap Thomas):
        "Suspicious, too, is the collateral appearance of 'Syr Elidir Marchog [the knight]' four generations earlier than Elidir Ddu....and of two daughters of Dafydd Fras three generations apart"
        Rather than resolve these anachronisms to learn there was a Sir Elidyr of c. 1060 and two men named Elidyr Ddu (or Elidyr II) born c. 1255 and c. 1295, the professor assigns it as evidence that the later family was probably faking their pedigree.  And had he known that any number of men in south Wales were called "David the fat", he might have discovered the two ladies in the pedigree identified as daughters of Dafydd Fras were not sisters, but were born 125 years apart of two different fathers.
         While Griffiths did recognize that the c. 510 Urien Rheged was a man of the 6th century and could not be the ancestor called Urien in the pedigrees of the Rice family...he correctly dates that Urien to the 9th century...he left the matter there.  He also noted that the marriage matches for Rhys ap Gronwy and Elidyr ap Rhys failed by at least 100 years as they appeared in the pedigree. However, we found those spouses did not even belong in the Rice pedigree, but occurred in a cousin line with substantially same-named men:
        RICE PEDIGREE: (a)
         1165  Einion ap Llywarch ap Cynhaethwy
        1195  Gronwy=====Lliwelydd f. Einion Clud of c. 1145 (b)
          1225  Rhys=====Gwladys (Marged) f. Gruffudd of c. 1080 (c)
         1260  Elidyr=====Gwladys f. Philip of c. 1235 (d)
   1295  Sir Elidyr Ddu===Elsbeth (Sissely) f. Seisyllt of c. 1175 (e)
        1325  Philip======Gwladys f. Dafydd Fras of c. 1330 (f)
     1355  Nicholas=====Sioned f. Gruffudd of c. 1370 (f)
     1385  Gruffudd
      1415  Thomas
     1449  Sir Rhys, obit 1525 ae 76
           (a)  Pedigree signed by Walter Rice of Newton in 1596 and presented to Lewys Dwnn in "Dwnn's Heraldic Visitations of Wales", vol i, page 210/11  It is correct as to the names of the men later than Cynhaethwy, but assigns several
incorrect marriage matches
          (b)  This lady married a Gronwy ap Einion ap Llywarch born c. 1130 in a cousin line of the family
            (c)  This lady married a Rhys ap Gronwy ap Einion born c. 1070 in a cousin line of the family
            (d)  This lady married Elidyr ap Rhys ap Gronwy born c. 1225 in a cousin line of the family
            (e)  This lady married a Sir Elidyr ap Llywarch born c. 1160, a brother of the c. 1165 Einion ap Llywarch.  He was confused with the later men called Elidyr Ddu even though those men were "ap Elidyr ap Rhys ap Gronwy ap Einion ap Llywarch"
            (f)  These marriages are correct as cited and do belong to men who were direct ancestors of Walter Rice.  The pedigree appears substantially correct after this Philip, but our work ends about the year 1400